@Torq what’s your take on abx tests that show most people can’t tell the difference between lossless and lossy?
Test methodology issues? Is lossless just silly and pointless for the vast majority of people?
Thoughts?
There are too many variables for a blanket answer.
Well, beyond saying that most people probably can’t.
They might be able to with training and focus. But most, understandably, aren’t interested.
But depending on material, equipment (including one’s ears), CODEC, bit-rate there may not actually be an audible difference. Or it may be so subtle as to require lots of informed comparisons to pick out the differences to a degree that one can subsequently discern them when doing a proper blind ABX.
If you’re comparing a 128 kbps MP3 to a lossless PCM file I would expect most people to be able to tell the difference quite readily, with very modest gear (pack-in earbuds driven straight off a phone would be sufficient). A 256 kbps AAC or 320 kbps MP3, using a modern encoder, would be much harder to differentiate, sometimes impossible, especially with simple material
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Many many years ago, back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, and I was in college, I participated in running a project that came to the same conclusion. Pissed off all the audio people around. 
Just wanted to know if the results were still accurate today. Apparently they likely are.
To be fair, we didn’t have obscenely top end gear to perform the tests. Nor a fully controlled environment. But it was fun anyway.
I concur that this is fraught with difficulties and caveats. However, I don’t accept that blind ABX testing gets at all meaningful and useful potential differences.
Example: I currently subscribe to Amazon HD and Google (Youtube) Music. Amazon has uncompressed content but Google does not. With the same signal chain I’ve swapped services mid-album to compare. While they sound identical for the first few seconds or minutes, Google often leads to tinnitus and discomfort. I’d surely fail an ABX test. Regardless, I’ve often turn Google off after 5 or 10 minutes, preferring silence. Sometimes a different album sounds better, and these often have cleaner treble content.
Human perception occurs at both the conscious level (i.e., as required to make the X choice of an ABX test), or via fragmentary lower-level elements of cognition (component brain processes outside of, prior to, or adjacent to awareness or the ability to report). An ABX test is complex, as it requires reliable auditory memory plus the conscious report. Still, people indeed “pick up on” things that they can’t “quite pin down.” We are fuzzy and analog systems.
The signal chain required for best human performance requires explicitly analytical hardware: Clean DAC, clean SS amp (e.g., THX). One will probably never reliably hear the difference between Amazon HD and Google via weak Bluetooth.
Audiophiles seeking to understand their perceptual limits must use maximum resolution hardware (who enjoys that?!?), and less demanding, less conscious perception test methods. These methods do exist. If one switches to a “laid back” setup then one cannot perform well on a test requiring maximum technical delivery.
Super expensive equipment may not be necessary to test human perceptual limits. The average Topping/THX setup ($200 to $1,000 for DAC and amp) may well suffice. The first goal is signal detection, not pleasure, harmonics, or euphonics. The headphones will need to be neutral to bright, per suitability for studio production (e.g., Clear, Utopia, HD800, possibly some Beyer, etc.)
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None of that existed in 1999 when I did this. We used the college theater/audio system as it was the highest quality equipment and environment we could find. (No recollection of what it was).
Today, I imagine we could use far better equipment.
But, I am not sure that matters. The point, for me, is the way most of us listen to music will mean that the vast majority do not benefit from
Lossless over well compressed music. (This is certainly true for me. Others can make their own decision)
The few times I felt like I could discern a difference, it could have been due to different masters as well.
Too many variables.
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I’ll share my very unscientific experience on this. I wondered too if I could hear a difference so last year I got a trial for Tidal and Qobuz at the same time and I’ve already had Spotify years. I A/B’d tracks I could find on all 3, intending to keep just one. I liked Qobuz the best and dropped Tidal (also wasn’t into buying more gear just to do MQA fully). I kept Spotify for it’s better music discovery and library…there’s a surprising amount of tracks/artists/etc I can’t find on Qobuz. I kept Qobuz because a/b ing tracks on Spotify and the same track at 16 or 24 bit on Qobuz …I can absolutely hear a difference. So can my wife and everybody in the family I subjected my “tests” to. Things are just a little clearer, more impactful, more dynamic (pun intended)…micro details are just more up front, more apparent. It’s that analogy of lifting the veil or looking through a dirty or blurred window. Things aren’t there that weren’t there before…they’re just clearer. Whether it’s worth it or not is up to the individual. Could be all in my head or bias but that’s my 2 cents.
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@Tom_Ato n6ii amps. You probably have multiple of each knowing you. 
So, I have a question.
If you were to pick one with the goal of excellent dynamic range (superb bass) and smooth sound, what would you pick?
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Ohhhh. You know me too well. 
E02. The best in these regards AND it has line out. Very close to N8.
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Cool. That agrees with my default choice. Also, it is reportedly very similar to the dx300 which is my favorite sound so far.
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Always happy to help., 
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Dude, you don’t make these decisions easy. I am deciding between adding a DAP (trying again), a stack (for night time listening only) or another headphone (in an attempt to find bliss).
Do you have any experience driving ZMF headphones with E02?
I understand you, Derek.
Here’s my current stack:
N3pro (or N6II) plus Cayin C9 for the the absolute sound quality at home(office).
My only current in ears available are all models of Empire Ears, Cayin and some of Shozy. They all go extremely well with Cayin. Some better with a bit of tube support, some solid state. As Cayin will be releasing R01 with R2R soon, 2 N6ii-Ti are on my way, one for a customer.
If you have the chance to test at home (my shop offers that for Swiss customers) then do it.
I had sent one customer a whole package of Cayin mobile gear including N6II, N3pro, YB04 (amazing BA for the price!) and the new Fantasy DD IEMs. He loved them all and ended up ordering N6II or optional N6II-TI.
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These and the ie900 are very high on my list to try. DD has been incredibly more appealing to me in both IEMs and over ears.
That kind of stack might be a long term goal for the library. But, right now I am sitting in a gravity chair on my back patio. And a whole stack would be a pain. Just the dap would be fine though.
I think exploring headphones is still the priority. Biggest sound quality increase for the money.
Hmm. I think I asked this before, but could you describe your preferred sound signature?
My customer liked the Fantasy very much. I found them to have a bit too much treble. Cayin told me they need 100-200hrs burn in though and I only tried for 5 mins 
.
The material quality and the accessories are absolutely crazy though. Best I’ve ever seen!
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I like dunu zen sound signature. ;). Removing some vocal harshness would be an improvement.
I love the overall tonal balance of the blessing 2 dusk. (Need to check that this is still true, haven’t listened in a while)
I love the bass impact (but not the elevation) of the lsa hp-2. (Bass invades on some music like most pentatonix) the visceral impact on this headphone even outside of bass is really good.
I love the clarity of the ether cx.
I suspect, no iem can match the impact of the hp-2.
Or, in other words, I am still learning. But I am getting to the point where I want to try some TOTL headphone. One that combines some number of things I like from above. Right now, my best guess is focal stellia. But I am open to ideas. ZMF verite closed is also on that short list.
The fact that stellia is easy to drive makes it an even easier option in the short term.
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Is DTA one of the reasons you went n6ii? I don’t think dx300 has an equivalent (they have mango whatever).
Does DTA work for 3rd party apps on the n6ii? (Specifically apple music, obviously)
DTA is mandatory when it comes to Android DAPs. This works with 3rd party apps as well of they support it.
But I mainly went with N6II because it sounds great regardless of price, it is built like a tank, Android and the amp modules make it flexible and it is fauteuil easy to use. To me, N6II is the best overall package of all DAPs I ever tried.
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You’re referencing other IEMs that I don’t know.
Please describe the tonality.
Example:
I. E. Lush but resolving treble, excellent detail. Balanced midrange with clear vocals. Impactful bass without bleeding into the other frequencies.
Engaging, musical and energetic overall sound signature.
That’s the Empire Ears Legend x for me. 
Btw. I doubt any IEM matches the bass impact of those badboys. Especially with N6II.
A customer just received his custom made LX yesterday after having bought the universal already.
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It’s because I don’t really know what I like. For example, the ether cx headphone has none of what I was looking for (limited bass impact, not really “fun”), yet it is the clearest sounding headphone I have heard. This made it extremely enjoyable. But, I wanted, fun.
The dunu zen is a highly impactful (from my limited iem experience) with tastefully boosted bass. It’s a single DD, yet it retains much of the speed and crispness of the Audeze Euclid planar IEM. It’s fun, without crossing that overwhelming line. It has a bit of harshness in vocals now that I have experienced something much smoother (ether cx)
LSA HP-2 Is a full size extremely impactful headphone. It is rich and lush, and manages to keep its bass toes from crossing the overwhelming line in music most of the time (pentatonix being a consistent notable exception. Vocal bass crosses that line. I highly prefer pentatonix on something else). I have not heard anything else with the power and fun behind the music like these present. Turn them up and they go bat crap crazy awesome. Yet they don’t need the volume to bring the feeling of the music. Again, I was surprised how much I like them because the warm lushness is typically way too much for me, but the impact and visceral feeling these headphones bring with it is just astounding.
For now, I prioritize fun. I would like a headphone with a mix of the sound of the hp-2 and ether cx. Impactful bass that doesn’t take over the frequency response in any way.
Unfortunately, iems mean a lot of irritation. Particularly with allergy season here. I am not sure even customs would help given that inflammation is a common issue. I don’t listen to the Zen all that much anymore, despite really liking the sound. Especially as a compliment to the hp-2. The zen feels light and airy in comparison.
Astell & Kern se180 that just came out. Comparing it to the n6ii but there isn’t much information yet.
Cool stuff.