Very true, I have absolutely no idea what the tubes cost!
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Thanks for the reply
I don’t see a “linked post” but will look into the tubes you mentioned.
Just realized the thread isn’t as long as I thought, as I was reading everything twice. That is until I ran into ny previous post…on this same page, not far from the end. Think I need some sleep 
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My understanding of guitar tube amps - gained from a hasty search on Wikipedia’s “Tube Sound” topic, is that unlike an audiophile amp, the guitar amps are going for a particular style or sound when distorting, and the WANT to distort. I would infer that the solid state “tubes” might be doing some signal processing if designed for guitar amp use, and might not be right in audiophile amps.
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The reason that tube amps are so craved in the guitar and bass world is due to distortion from tube sounding pleasing to the ear where a distorted solid state sounds awful.
My (limited) experience with tubes is as a bass player and I have always preferred clean tones to distorted ones, however, a mildly overdriven tube can add a smoothness and warmth to the tone that could be classed as “closed and sterile” otherwise (always dependent on personal preference).
(Edit: it is also very common to use the same kind of slight tube distortion for vocals in the studio, which is where I believe that tube preamps are most commonly used until recent “hybrid” tube designs)
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Agreed. The distortion of guitar amps is 1,000x that of listening amps. The aggression, the buzz, the sizzle comes from torturing tubes far beyond their intended function. The history of hard rock is a history of overloading tubes more and more. It’s hard to explain what happens unless you sit down with an amp and crank the gain knob; it sounds different in person than on a recording.
Quoting Wikipedia on the history of Mesa/Boogie hard rock and heavy metal amps:
Mesa/Boogie began with a practical joke: he borrowed a Fender Princeton (a small 12-watt amplifier) from his friend, Barry Melton of Country Joe and the Fish, and hot-rodded it by replacing the amplifier section with that of a Fender Bassman and installing a 12-inch speaker instead of the original 10-inch. The resulting amplifier proved to be loud and successful, and Smith made more than 200 of these Princeton “Boogies”—a name allegedly provided by Carlos Santana,[1] who is to have exclaimed “This thing boogies!”[5]
As listening tube amps involve relatively minor distortion (e.g., 10% or 20%), it seems logically possible to create a decent solid-state tube emulator with the same technology.
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Hi a!
Ok, any idea to change NE5532D? - Bristol’s V5i will be better, but the voltages are different.
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The fellow who did the measurements was leery of the op amp’ reputation. He took it to a meet and changed his mind after hearing it and gauging other’s reactions. So, unless you know of a good drop in upgrade, I wouldn’t worry about it, Maybe a discreet op amp.Sparko
I took apart this amp at the beginning of this thread, and the Op Amps are soldered in. You’d have to remove the amp directly off the board, which can be difficult and then solder in the new amp. I dont know enough about circuits so wondering if you could solder in an op-amp socket in it’s place for quicker swapping in the future.
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I use the GE matched tubes and they were a small, but noticeable improvement over the stock chinese tubes that come with the unit. Slightly more detail but similar sound profile.
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As a tube buyer noob… would you recommend these?
Prices for matched pair GE 5670s run from $18 to over $100…not quite “tube hell”…but at the same cost as the amp (incl.ship cost) maybe approaching “tube torture”? 
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Where on earth do you start, how much difference is there between different versions of tubes with identical numbers (ie matched pairs of NOS GE5670s vs new Chinese GE5670s) and how do you know when it’s just not worth the diminishing returns to swap out tubes at all.
I know many here enjoy the “check it out” aspect of this hobby and many, if not most, don’t mind the associated costs.
But for me, headphone gear is simply a tool for achieving the goal of listening to music presented in a manner thats close to what was recorded/intended by the artist.
I’ve wanted a tube smp for some time now because I liked what I think is best described as the “bloom” of the sound (which is likely tube distortion/reverb of one kind or another).
But the associated unknown factors are, for me, more of a hassle than a “pleasurable investigation”.
The anticipated heat, fragility and cost, among several other things perceived by me as drawbacks/limitations, has always left things too confusing/frustrating to venture forward.
I’m a very “set and forget” kind of guy. I like to find components that give me a sound (and SQ) I’m happy with for what I’ve paid; and then simply forget about the gear and enjoy the music. I do realize this is somewhat antithetical to (what seems to me) endlessly analyzing or dissecting the gear and the recording.
I can appreciate that comparisons and “the search” is a big part of this hobby, so also a big part of this forum. But for me, things really are more about listening to/enjoying the music without distraction.
With all this taken into consideration, does anyone feel comfortable suggesting where this amp tops out with tube-swapping (sorry, just can’t say “roll” 
)
If $100 tubes improved the resolution and clarity of the amp to quite obviously bring it to “another level” I’d spend it (say 20% improvement if it’s possible to quantify in %).
If I can get 95% of the way there (without hearing tube related shortcomings or defects) I’ll stick with paying $30 or so.
Any suggestions for a reliable tube at a sane cost in the top 95th percentile (I mean the exact tube) with the understanding there can be QC issues with all tubes?
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GE 5670’s will be fine. There may be others. You could do research into their equivalents if you wan, russian , chinese tubes and who knows what else but you should be happy with these. I have been staring down the op amp rabbit hole this evening, wondering if I should go for the Sparko’s for higher , cleaner output but I have no idea if that would be an upgrade. They are supposed to be a drop in replacement. I would probably have to get some sockets to drop them into.
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Quoting from the Atomicbob / SBAF link posted above:
Performance enhancement opportunities
Works with NoiseNuke™ improving response in low end grunt.
Low end grunt further improved with 12V 2A ZeroZone LPS, a worthy performance upgrade.
GE 5670W driver tubes provide a smoother presentation for tracks that become noticeably spitty with 6N3. Please note that once the shorter 5670W is inserted, extraction requires careful rocking technique and extreme patience. Does not lend to tube rolling.PLEASE DO NOT use WE396 in this amp. While worthy of 5670W at $5 to $10 / tube, the extra performance capability of WE396 is NOT going to turn this amp into a Cavalli Liquid Platinum or ECP Audio T4. It will be a total waste and prevent use of the rare WE396 in amps that would actually benefit.
Thanks very much for the replies/quotes from previous posts.
I should have been able to find that info and obviously missed a post or two in the thread. Having read it some time ago now, I think just skimming through the secobd time was why I missed the atomiicbob/SBAF post mentioned earlier.
Thanks again for the polite head’s up.
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TUgh [quote=“generic, post:256, topic:2282”]
PLEASE DO NOT use WE396 in this amp. While worthy of 5670W at $5 to $10 / tube, the extra performance capability of WE396 is NOT going to turn this amp into a Cavalli Liquid Platinum or ECP Audio T4. It will be a total waste and prevent use of the rare WE396 in amps that would actually benefit.
[/quote]
It would appear that while not using $100 tube in $100 amp is good advice (especially if the WE 396 is rare/limited, so should be reserved for a $2200 amp like the T4); the $5-$10 quote for the # 396 tube might be missing a C note? I was just curious, not planning on buying one
As an aside, that T4 amp is one beautiful component, which, while quite expensive, appears to require and include the expertise, man hours and attention to detail that warrants the price tag.
For me, a $2200 piece of gear like that would be very tempting, (that’s if I was willing to spend that much cash to listen to music through headphones).
If anything would push me into “playing with the big boys” it would be gear like the T4 (based solely on the description/specs).
I’d want to hear it beforehand, but if I was ever going to get impulsive, I might just start there 
396A / 2C51 Western Electric
$114 QTY:
Add To Cart
NOS-396A-WE
PS
I don’t know what part of that quoted post was corrected but I received notice that it had been changed/edited while I was editing my own post.
I could have easily missed/misread the tube# designated as costing $5->$10.
Regardless, most of what I wanted to post still applies.
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That sounds like you’re looking for something “transparent”, in which case solid state is likely a better bet than tube.
Again, I’d direct you towards solid state gear. Tubes will vary in sound from one sample to another, and worse they’ll vary over the lifetime of each tube itself. I think that tubes appeal to the same sort of tinkerer instinct as carburetors, which is that they’re more easily user-tunable. Solid state is more like the fuel injection of the audio world, reliable, consistent and not really something with which you can easily tinker. In other words, “set and forget”.
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Thanks, but no need to direct me as I have a pretty good balanced SS set-up. Actually I’ve had several decent SS amps (both desktop and portable) and have been using cans off and on for over forty-five years.
By set-and-forget, I simply meant that once I find a set-up I like, I’m not plagued by “upgraditis” or interested in the newest shiny toy that people tend to flock to…for however long it’s good enough (or remains the FOTM).
I’ve heard >$10,000 headphone set-ups but just never heard the kind of improvement over balanced Senn 600-650s with a good balanced amp to warrant the increased cost. Maybe there are some lower cost options now that would suit my ears and budget but I honestly don’t know and am oretty happy with the SQ and sig of what I own atm (although I could use a new DAC.
I don’t think I’m a cheapskate, I think I just have different priorities than many others. I know people with much more money than I have who feel much the same way.
Maybe that means I shouldn’t consider myself to be part of the “headphone community”, I honestly don’t know.
I like good sounding gear a great deal and have friends who own far more than I do (and some relatively expensive set-ups).
Before the fairly recent multi-thousand dollar headphone craze became somewhat mainstream, I had the opportunity to hear the quite rare and to my mind still exceptional sounding Sony RS10s.
I listened for a decent amount of time at a meet in Toronto tovRay Samuels’ pair, balanced and hooked up to his own B52 tube amp, fed from a multi-thousand dollar balanced CD transport & DAC. His other “day to day” pair at the time were balanced HD600s. I’m oretty sure he mived up to the HD800s on release but don’t think he dumped his 600s (it was actually astounding how good those HD600 cans sounded when fed by his expensive source/amp combo).
I’m not name dropping for the sake if it but trying to give some context to my comments.
This Toronto meet was where a 70s love for great headphones was truly rekindled; but with the addition of dedicated headphone amps.
I’d been a head-fi member for a short time before the Toronto meet but had only got as far as purchasing the HD555, driven by a portable (but decent) little amp.
As they’re low impedance (for Senn cans) the Cmoy type amp from A Pioneer SACD player or my iPod 5.5g with the Wolfson DAC sounded pretty good to me. But the hunt for better SQ had begun.
I knew there was far better, if only from my recollection of the AKG340 from the 70s and several weeks in school at a professional recording studio.
I still remember the AKG340s sounding great when driven from a well implemented headphone out on a Sansui integrated (pretty sure it was the Sansui I remember but I owned a few pretty decent integrated amps back then, a few of which had pretty good headphone playback).
Suffice to say I’ve heard some very good gear and love what tubes add to the presrntation, especially with certain music. I just never got around to getting my feet wet due to the reasons I’ve already mentioned.
This little amp has beckoned for some time now and I just wanted some educated advice as to how to get the best from it from the get-go. As I also mentioned, I should have read the thread again more carefully, as my answer had already been posted. I simply overlooked it and got into some further conversation.
My bad…I guess? 
PS Sorry for any typos but that post is wayyy longer than intended and I just don’t have it in me to go back and edit gthings yet again…I apologize, sincerely. If the mods want to delete it, I’m okay with it. As I said, it’s way longer than it should have been and may not be all that helpful in this thread.
Peace
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Of course you should feel part of the community. It shouldn’t be a prerequisite that you have to own lots of expensive gear to be a part and I’m damned glad that it’s that way. I hope it never becomes an elitist hobby. If it were I would want no part of it. I do feel that in some forums there are elitist elements who often shout down people just starting out because of their inexpensive setup. It makes my blood boil sometimes. I might have a few sets of nice headphones but in regards to a lot of posters in the forum I have quite inexpensive Amps and Daps. Some guys have some wonderful systems. They’ve never come across in any other way as friendly. Even though I know next to nothing when compared to these guys. It can be a little intimidating sometimes but that’s through no fault of theirs but merely my insecurities. No I am happy to be part of this community and I am happy that you are too.
End of rant. Sorry. 
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