Newbie "Headphone Exploring Path"

General Headphone Discussion
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I can certainly understand that. Mom did Leyenda/Asturias as a recital piece. It’s extremely well known, and there are many fine recordings. In my earlier links, I pointed to a few YouTubes where that was the title piece.

The reason I come back to Sor for my headphone comments however, is not just that I know them, but that the studies in particular provide a very specific path to mastery of different techniques. It’s like Bach’s 2 part inventions in some ways.

Anyway, I can usually find a nice recording, and then listen for specific things, which help me evaluate how a headphone may render at least a somewhat known quantity.

If I try to do that with Leyenda, I will get very caught up in the music, the guitarist’s interpretation, and the overall scope of the magnificent thing.*

On the other subject - which DAC/AMP, @Torq made an excellent suggestion, and @generic made some other recommendations.

When I went to buy my 3rd (latest tech, more power) DAC, I went for the iFi xDSD. One of the factors - for me - was that I wanted to have MQA capability. When I am able to motivate my ass to write a review (Where do you think my best comments come from?) I like to be able to listen to high resolution files, and I also like to be able to say that I’ve compared using MQA simply because its a known “thing”. I should clearly point out that I have not been able to really hear an appreciable difference between a good high res flac and an MQA encoding - seems like a distinction without a difference in many cases.

I realize the xDSD is $399 new retail. @Torq suggested the iFi Nano iDSD Black Label, which also handles MQA and goes for $199.

*Listening to Leyenda on classical guitar is only a bit unlike settling down with Bo Derek to listen to Bolero.

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22

I also love any guitar music though primarily Acoustic and Classical. I will listen to anything. I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as you regarding this field but I do like it.

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My favorite sub-$300 ($248 new) stack to go with the HD6XX is the Schiit Modi 3/Vali 2:

Modi%203%20%20%20Vali%202%20%20%20HD6XX
Modi%203%20%20%20Vali%202%20%20%20HD6XX1024×990 160 KB

Other options, beyond those I mentioned initially, that I have particularly enjoyed with the HD6XX that you can get new for under $300, in price-order, include the Grace SDAC feeding the Cavalli Liquid Spark ($180), Grace SDAC + JDS Labs Atom ($189), Modi 3 + Magni 3 ($198) or Modi 3 + JDS Labs Atom ($198).

Everything else I would suggest for that budget would require buying used (and getting quite lucky on pricing and availability) or would involve DIY. MQA support in the DAC is only really relevant if you are, or are going to be, using a TIDAL HiFi subscription.

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24

I’m hoping my favourite is the SMSL SU-8 and the Loxjie P20, mainly because that’s what I have for the HD6XX when they arrive :wink:

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25

I find this statement to be really surprising. To take an example the JDS Atom advertises itself to be both a pre-amp and amp. Yet the quoted statement (from a source far more reliable than me) seems to imply that you would then need some kind of ‘pre-preamp’ in order to drive the Atom.

This seems really surprising to me. If I wasn’t so ill-informed I would say that I don’t believe it, but …

dave

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26

Well, I got impatient (3 or so weeks for the HD 58X to ship and another 3 or so weeks for the 6XX). So I just paid for a lightly used HD 650 on ebay. My excuse was that I had a 10% off coupon expiring soon so I absolutely had to do this now :slight_smile:

And the DFR will be good enough as a starting point. The ATH-E50’s (IEM’s) may have their place in my arsenal, but they are a real pain to get properly seated (if anything the COMPLY tips are worse than what came with the IEM). So I am really looking forward to hearing quality music without that battle.

dave

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27

Single-ended audio amplifiers (we’ll come back to pre-amps) generally are designed with the assumption that line-level input will be driven at 2 volts. Usually there’s some headroom there to avoid clipping the input stage, but 2 volts is the closest thing to an actual standard in play here.

For the sake of simplicity, let’s assume that the amplifier can output a maximum of 1 watt of power in response to that 2 volt input (gain is either switched, or fixed, in almost all amplifier implementations). If you only feed the amplifier 1 volt, then your maximum output, all other things being equal, will be 0.5 watts.

The Dragonfly Black has an absolute, hard, limit of 1.1 volts output. That’s with it turned up to its maximum output, running right against its power rails, which is pretty much the worst place to run it (amplifiers generally perform better around their operational mid-points, after which distortion tends to rise rapidly) or any other amplifier.

That will let you get, at most, half the potential power out of the amplifier the DFB is feeding. For the DFB to sound it’s best in this scenario, especially given that inputs on amplifiers are generally MUCH higher impedance than headphones, you’re realistically going to run it at maybe 0.75 volts output.

In effect, the DFB is acting as a source and a pre-amp in the above scenario, and simply will not be able to drive the amplifier to it’s maximum output - short of the amplifier either not using the standard 2 volt input model, or it having selectable gain that is sufficient to compensate. Higher gain settings on amplifiers tend to result in a significant increase in noise and distortion.

The Dragonfly Red fairs better here, as it can muster 2.1 volts of output at maximum level. So the amplifier will see an appropriate input signal there such that it gain deliver it’s maximum output power.

That DFR is, however, also running against its rails at that point, which is, again, a long way from the best way to use it.

In headphone amplifiers, which include a “pre-amp”, of the nature we’re discussing the “pre-amp” bit is usually limited to being a passive input level attenuator, and maybe a buffer, which may fall either before anything reaches the gain stage.

Dedicated pre-amps often have buffers and active gain stages themselves, which can help bring a source up to the requisite drive power and voltage level for higher impedance amplifier inputs. Though, there is no free lunch, and a pre-amp with gain will also add noise to the system.

Short version, whether you believe it or not, is that you’d be running the DFB or DFR at their limits, and a good way from their optimum performance, to properly drive any downstream amplifier. And you’re also amplifying an amplifier. So in addition to the lower measured performance when DFB/DFR are run at max levels, you’re also now adding your secondary amplifiers noise to the that innate to the FDB and DFR while also amplifying any noise (and it’s there … ALL amplifiers hiss/have noise).

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28

I have experience driving headphones with low-end dongles and portables. The benefit is a matter of degree. You WILL have better performance with a DAC or DAC/Amp device that has a dedicated “Line Out” function that bypasses the volume control system. You WILL have better performance when the source has more output power than little dongles can offer. However, you’ll inch up from (bad) PC output with most external DACs.

For many people and many headphones, the differences in DACs beyond the $100 level (e.g., Topping, FiiO products) won’t be very noticeable.

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29

Thanks for the reply. As I understand it the output of a Grace SDAC (see https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-massdrop-x-grace-design-sdac.2495/ ) is about the same as the DFR and is something that you recommended to be paired with the Atom.

Is this maybe a mixture of peak vs RMS measurements or something like that?

Thanks again.

dave

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The only thing that is comparable there is that the output voltages are the same.

They will play at the same output level (if you turn the DFR up to maximum output), but the DFR will have higher noise and distortion since it is going through an attenuator (to control output level) and a current-buffer to provide it’s additional power output … something the SDAC doesn’t need (since it is intended to drive a higher-impedance line-level input).

I think the DFR is a great little device, I have one myself (among myriad others), but it is a DAC/amp, not a pure-DAC, and it behaves like one. There is a reason why things like the Meridian Explorer 2 has a dedicated line-output that does not go through the attenuation or current buffer that the DFR uses (and is a big reason why it sounds better when feeding an amp than the DFR does).

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31

That makes sense - thanks again.

dave

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32

I disagree.

Sure, when almost all of the Topping, FiiO, Schiit, etc., $100 dacs all use basic AK4490 implementations, you’re essentially reviewing the same DAC implementation in a different chassis. Exactly what differences are people expecting here?

Let’s scale that up to the $800-$900 category with the Denafrips ARES (R2R), Schiit Gungnir (DS), and AGD NFB-28.38 (ESS). If you can’t immediately tell the sound differences between these DACs, even with sub-optimal headphones, well… You should run straight to an audiologist 'cause you’re deaf as hell. =)

Just my 2 cents.

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33

Yes. The context was a DAC & Amp with a $300 budget…newbie explorations…

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34

Fair enough. My reply was fairly tangential.

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35

Not to pick nits, but I think that was version 1. The current DFBs are supposed to have 1.2 volts output. It’s not MUCH more, granted. When I use it with an amp, I amp probably running it at 85% or so, and am aware that it’s not putting out the 2V that is ideal. However the amp I use does have a gain switch, and is pretty quiet even at high gain. I would not be surprised if with other amps, your mileage may vary.

The xDSD in preamp-out mode (2V as you say) is decidedly better, particularly if you want to listen to loud stuff or if I have an inefficient headphone. But at moderate levels, it is quite enjoyable.

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36

Yep, 1.2V not 1.1V.

All of the previous statements about why it’s operating at a non-optimal level (or mode) feeding an amp, why a DFR is not directly comparable to an SDAC, and the performance potential of the HD6XX/HD650 that can be exploited by either DFB or DFR remain unchanged.

I’m not going to spend any more time here, or elsewhere, attempting to answer specific, technical questions, when I should have realized much sooner that a) it is apparent that there really isn’t a desire for anything more than an affirmation of the original posit and/or b) any desire for actual understanding isn’t backed by a practical interest in applying it.

Happy listening.

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37

I don’t think anybody was disagreeing with you, @Torq, or even contradicting your advice. Yes, I know that the DFB isn’t optimal, and that the Red might not be also.

The point was that these things are paths, and we don’t always take the ideal routes. It doesn’t mean that the journey can’t be instructive and enjoyable.

Especially for someone entering or re-entering the hobby, and even with someone who has reasonable resources, the wallet and the ear are often at odds.

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38

Is the Modi 3/Vali 2 still a good beginner stack? With all the great reviews of the 58x, I’m thinking of keeping them, improving the stock pads and adding a good desktop system. I’m still just driving off the iPhone so I’m limited for source, but maybe I’m not giving the 58x their due with only minimal amplification.

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39

I think so.

In fact I’d consider that combination as being well beyond a “beginner” stack. It’s inexpensive, relatively speaking, but performs well above the asking price. Just a couple or three years ago, that level of performance would have been 3-4x the price.

If you want a little more resolution, at the cost of a some tonal richness/weight, then the Modi 3/JDS Labs Atom is also a good way to go.

My personal preference is for the Modi 3/Vali 2 … but I am a sucker for tubes.

Both setups do really nicely with the HD58X, and I prefer the Vali 2 with the Sennheiser’s in this case. If you were looking at HE4XX I’d probably go Atom or maybe Magni 3.

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40

Good to know! If only the funds were unlimited! So many good choices in the higher price market, but I think starting with a good amp stack will help some of my low- to mid-range headphones sparkle.

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