The Objective, Subjective & Dejected Thread

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I actually wouldn’t guess that they sound the same at all. Here’s a comparison of the Z1R and the closest looking Solaris sample from Crinacle’s data:

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Not only does the Solaris have a slight relative elevation in the high bass/low mids, but it’s got quite a bit less energy in the high mids and low treble, both of which would explain it sounding warmer.

I actually think that the frequency response contains a ton of information about how headphones and IEMs sound, but I also think that it’s hard to understand exactly how something will sound just by looking at the frequency response just because of the complexity involved. I love messing around with EQ and that experience has taught me that even relatively small boosts and cuts in the right place can make a big difference in how something sounds, affecting everything from timbre to resolution to soundstage. When two IEMs differ in certain areas by as much as 5dB or more, I can definitely tell that they’re going to sound different, I just can’t tell exactly how.

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102

@pwjazz @antdroid

Your posts are invaluable, and help me to see this hobby from another point of view :slight_smile:

I may not always agree with measurements, but I appreciate what they do. Same with EQ, but EQ is more I think because I just want to listen not fiddle about with it (i.e. I’m lazy lol)

Thanks for keeping the content flowing, and the discussion amicable lol

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103

Well I meant to the untrained eye, which seems like a lot of folks. Without the comparison tool that Marshall made, we wouldnt even be able to do neat stuff like that to see the little intricacies. :slight_smile:

Im actually going to try to implement that comparison tool soon.

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104

Hi allegro,

It depends indeed a lot on the transducers, and for speakers things are much worse, with all the problems caused by room acoustics.
But when you take headphones whose sound is very clean and highly resolved, e.g. like Focal’s , especially the Utopia, things do matter for me. With the Utopia (and many reported the same) I can clearly hear differences between cables. Each component, esp. amps, in your audio chain will degrade the sound, so it is better to start with the best possible basis.
Another thing is that SNR and THD are given at their optimum value (normally 0dB), but many people will listen at much lower levels, (I listen in average at -60dB), and the quieter, the worse the numbers. So taking the electronics gear with the best numbers gives more margin to balance out what is lost by listening at low volume levels.

All the best,
bidn

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105

Last night, I couldn’t sleep. Maybe it’s the news, but it was also the newly revived classical music discussion here. Thank you @frkasper. I wanted to listen with no fuss, and some comfort, while laying down. I pulled out the Sennheiser IE 40 Pro, which had not gotten much use in the last couple of months. I had some Dekoni “Mercury” foam tips, which I substituted for the stock ones, and there was an immediate increase in comfort.

These IEMs are in Senn’s Pro Audio line, but they are just dandy. I think @ProfFalkin also likes them. Was listening on a vintage iPad Air, to Tidal, no DAC, just plugged into the iPad. Enjoyed Tidal’s movies on Bach, these were great for that, even the ones done on organ, could hear the big pipes just fine. And some of the recordings I wanted were only at “HIFI” quality, not master. Piano was very clear.

While not as detailed listening with no DAC to FLAC level reproduction, the balance and soundstage was fine. Comfort with the Dekoni tops was the best I’ve had in IEMs. I think I like this combination better than my other IEMs. I have no high end ones, but I do have the Kanas Pro, and the 1More Triple Driver, which is my go-to for phone use if I can’t grab my Koss Porta-Pros.

See? Very subjective. Comfort is key. I now need to consider a drink and some music to pair with it. Music and drink pairing is a subjectivist playground.

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106

Theres nothing better than chilling in bed listen to good music with your favourite iem’s and a fine lady at your side.

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107

Thanks for pointing this thread. I could really see some sparks coming out from the screen. That was a fun reading. :nerd_face:

This was hilarious. :joy:

Please allow my take:

  • Subjectivist mindset: need to try this ASAP;
  • Objectivist: make it two ladies? :wink:

As soon as I hit the reply button I’ll start apologizing to my wife.

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108

Not sure this is really on-topic or off-topic, but I did some measurements of my tubes using Schiit Saga+ just doing a simple FR graph and looking at harmonic distortion as well. 2nd order harmonics do change with the tubes… interesting to see how FR responds as well.

I used the Saga+ which lets you enable or disable the tube buffer. The stock is green, which is no tube buffer. The red and blue are two different tubes, the Red Tungsol (default tube), and the PSVane tube I just got which only had maybe 15 hours on it at the time.

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There’s definitely some FR subtle changes, which the PSVane one showing a roll-off in subbass, though whether I actually hear that is another story. The tube also added about +3dB gain to volume, but I normalized FRs to 1KHz.

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109

My wife doesn’t read this unless I point something out. And, she’s away. So for the couple of ladies, I’d need to find a couple of rental units. That’s high risk in several ways these days.

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110

@DarthPool is on fire today, I am laughing at the other thread. The Objective, Subjective & Dejected Thread"

There is definitely the Church of ASR followers which brings about closed-mindedness that who will cast damnation down on you tell you are a sinner if you do not believe all devices need SINAD 120 or better and all amps and DAC’s with sound the same when the noise floor is 120 dB or better.

Now if you do not buy the Cool Whip 500 for less then $500 you definitely going into Audio Hell.

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111

Please don’t create random threads a) to bash other sites (it’ll just attract trolls) and b) where the thread you’re referencing is the best place to put the post you started your new thread with in the first place.

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112

The entire point of this thread is to keep all the pointless objective vs. subjective warring in one place so it doesn’t infect other threads/discussion.

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113

I was not bashing site it was a set of behavior that was lot different.

That is my real point it is pointless. The whole thread. It a human condition I seen since I was a little kid with religious extremes

ASR the site is not the issue it has some great people with good information. I meet Tom who develops TCA amp over there.

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114

My point was more about not creating superfluous threads than the “bashing” aspect.

Not every discussion needs its own thread.

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115

This should be pinned to the top of the forum.

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116

Ha, Amos’s point about the problem with attacking people reminded me of an unpleasant interaction I recently had on another forum. Someone compared me to a religious fanatic because I had the temerity to say that I can enjoy a sunset both on an aesthetic level (i.e. it’s beautiful) and an intellectual level (i.e. the atmosphere refracts lights) and that this was in fact a “scientific” approach (i.e. observe something and then seek to understand/explain the observation).

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117

Darn good thing it warn’t ball lightnin’ or th’ Norrern Lights.

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With the resurrection of this thread, I have yet another psychological explanation. The entire debate is moot. Strong objective and subjective viewpoints recreate very old theories that have failed. Lots of research points toward moderate, multi-factor, and complex explanations for human experience.

Consider the illustration below, as humans use abstract layered frameworks to understand everything. They rely heavily on their senses in their unique forms, to include: spatial relationships (i.e., vision or visual diagrams), linear/memory for sequences (i.e., reading or audio), touch (i.e., heat, cold, texture, pain), smell, etc.

Everyone seeks functional and interpretive value from their experiences, but humans – living meat with the ability to learn and reproduce – aren’t very consistent or good at learning or interpreting or organizing their experiences.

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Subjective audiophiles generally focus on the middle of the pyramid: cognitive and environmental experiences. They KNOW what they see, what the hear, and what they like from direct personal experience. When coupled with lack of trust in others, a do-it-yourself attitude, etc. they don’t want or need any more information/data.

Not coincidentally, introspection was the first major method in university research psychology (circa 1900), and it proved to be TERRIBLE from a scientific viewpoint. Each person was different, there were no common measurements, and it led to endless confusion (which continues unabated with the subjective audio culture).

Introspective research led to a sharp backlash and the rise of behaviorism, which is a kind of measurements-only objectivism. However, by the 1960s strict behaviorism proved to be simplistic and also fell flat on its face, to be replaced by more moderate cognitive models that incorporate both objective data and subjective personal experiences (i.e., your body and your senses).

The anger of the objective/subjective debate follows from emotion and enjoyment getting mixed up with good and bad efforts to improve reproduction, improve quality, and understand what works and what doesn’t work. What makes me happy makes me happy. What makes you happy makes you happy. No arguing can change any of that. But, scientific bio- and psycho- acoustic research can predict what will be liked with decent accuracy.

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119

Deep into a Wray & Newphew rum and tonic, this post compels me to broach the subject of Pastafarianism, which I probably would not do were it not my birthday, and were I not home alone despite that fact.

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As you know, Pastafarianism started as a reaction to the teaching of “Intelligent Design” in Kansas schools in 2005. I must not be a good Pastafarian, because although I don’t mind wearing a colander on my head, and oppose the religious aspects of Intelligent Design, I don’t mind actual lower case intelligent design, which consists of say, putting the knobs on the front of electronic equipment.

I don’t know where I’m going with this. I’d better stop.

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120

I consciously avoid the confrontational aspects of religion vs. atheism. The includes anything associated with Richard Dawkins in the last 20 years – and certainly Pastafarianism. There’s no arguing with sincerely held beliefs, and no need to incite anger. Both science and religion reach a wall when they ask “Why does anything exist at all?”

It’s pretty safe to stick to Repeatable, Observable, and Testable methods. Through this one can get at what predicts behavior.

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