Nice. I still haven’t got round to Vanska’s 5th yet. Maybe tomorrow.
I’ve always enjoyed comparison listenings, its always illuminating to hear which ones grab me and which don’t.
And the whys of it all.
The more I listen the more I uncover.
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Mahler 5 - Vanska vs Solti
Listened to the Vanska Mahler 5 today. Excellent performance and recording. I’m beginning to suspect the SQ with these Minnesota / BIS recordings has to do with the natural qualities of their orchestra hall. I am really taken by the sound. So much so that when I saw Vanska / Minnesota /BIS had a complete set of Sibelius and Beethoven Symphonies, I checked out some comments at Amazon and ordered both sets.
I have about a dozen or so BIS CD’s from before 2010, including the 90’s and 80’s: some Sibelius, some Tubin, Nielsen, and few others recorded in various locations in Europe with different orchestras, but I don’t think they have the sonic qualities of these Minnesota / Orchestra Hall ones. I’ll revisit a few of them soon to confirm for myself.
Right off the bat, Vanska’s Minnesota M5 is a top shelf performance for sure. Pacing throughout is just about perfect. Especially in the 2nd movement which may just be one of the toughest Mahler movements to pull off in his whole symphonic output.
1st Movement: A lot of M5 recordings push the gain too hard on the opening trumpet notes so that when the full orchestra makes its intro it sounds anemic. BIS got it just right. The bass drum, tympani , and double basses are very well recorded. His pacing makes this a true funeral march with all the dark undertones. Seems Vanska is going with the European orchestra layout in this whole series. (curious to hear how he lays out his forces for the Sibelius and Beethoven cycles).
2nd Movement: As I previously allude to, I think this is one tough movement to get across but Vanska has done it admirably. (He is right there with Barbirolli’s 2nd movement in his classic performance from decades ago). Much of the music in this movement is agitated and chaotic, a bit of uncertainty as to where the music is going. It’s easy to get it tripping all over itself and lacking in clarity. About 2/3s of the way in Mahler introduces a magnificent chorale for the brass but just at the point where you expect the music to reach a highpoint it fades away in uncertainty followed immediately by the agitated music that opened the movement but that to fades away to uncertainty closing the movement out. (The brass chorale will return and fully unload at the end of the 5th movement).
3rd Movement: This largest of the 5 movements is a complete turnaround from the music of the first two. This is idyllic, pastoral-like, light-hearted music that alternates with darker moments but is basically of a different world than the first two movements. Vanska and the musicians pull off these alternations with extreme clarity. One of the qualities Vanska seems to have (like Tennstedt) is the ability to pace music in a relaxed manner, and yet one that never feels slower than it should be.
4th Movement: Vanska seems right in step with many of the other conductors who have recorded this symphony in terms of pacing. However, I would like a little more intensity from the strings.
5th Movement: The Rondo Finale continues the quality of the previous movements in terms of interpretation and execution. The stymied big brass chorale of the 2nd movement at last breaks loose towards the end of the movement. My favorite performances always have a measured slowing of the tempo leading into the final chorale to bring more drama and give the brass their big moment. Not quite like going from 60 to 0 in 3 seconds but the effect is most notable. But wait, there’s more! LOL. The orchestra now takes off like it got stung by a bee and rushes ever faster, screaming, (or laughing depending on your point of view), to finally get squashed by a final, full orchestra bang with bass drum.
I’m going to have to revisit some of my other recordings at these key points sometime. The 5th like the 1st has no shortage of top notch recordings available. For a comparison with this recording I also listened to my first love and first hearing by Solti and Chicago on Decca. But the 1991 re-master of the original 1970 recording is the one to have. It is still my fav for its sonics and Solti’s aggressive take on the score with about the best 5th movement closing at unmatched speed and ensemble playing. I had the 1970 on LP, then the first CD issue (1984 I think – still have it) and then the 1991 remaster of the original which is truly remarkable. The only possible weak spot in Solti /Chicago performance might be that 2nd movement.
This:
Not this
: original CD release
Solti also did 2 live recordings of the 5th. The 1991 “Live” with Chicago, and his very last recording done July 1997, before he passed away in Oct of that year, with the Tonehalle-Orchestra Zurich. The 91’ live is with the Chicago again but I feel the recording is not as good as the 1970 or the Tonehalle recording which is very good for “Live”.
This:
Not this:
All 4 of these are London/Decca’s, The difference is the recording locales. The original 1970 was made in Medinah Hall, Chicago and is vivid and dynamic, clean and clear. The 1991 “Live” was with Chicago but they must have been on tour as the recording location was the Musikverein, Vienna and it is too soft around the edges for my liking. The 1997 recording was made in the Tonehalle’s regular performance hall and it’s a keeper for me as well.
There are many very good recordings of the 5th (and 1st too). Among 5th’s Barbirolli, Bernstein, Abbado, Tennstedt, and Boulez come to mind. But with 24 different recordings it’s tough for me to keep track. If I could only have 2 it would be Vanska and Solti 1970 remastered in 1991.
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Cracking writeup @FLTWS. I love you’re descriptive way of writing. Even a knuckle head like me can understand.
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Thanks, LOL, your welcome.
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I’m listening to this now. You’re right about the recording and hall. Despite the foreboding, the triumphant wins. This recording is so clean that even in the ffff you can hear precise placement and sound of the triangle making it’s exclamation point.
I’m listening to the QOBUZ 96K 24bit FLAC using ROON to feed the Schiit BF2, STAX SRM T1S, to Nectar Hive eStats. Dead quiet background. I don’t miss TIDAL masters at all, with this setup I can apply a slight bass shelf below 50 hz that I like with this chain at my preferred volume levels and still be in a lossless/enhanced chain.
Oh the Scherzo!!! Most excellent. (just shocked at the brilliant start)
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Im jealous of you folks with access to Qobuz. I should just commit to getting rid of tidal completely as it adds very little to my listening other than some test tracks I use and the occasional nostalgia trip to the compressed mp3 sound of my youth and basic spotify (way cheaper) would cover that.
That Minnesota M5 is very good. I havent had a chance to listen to it completely in one go but have heard it in pieces.
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Ah, Monday morning! Fortunately I don’t have to go to work today as I’m retired, LOL. So I think after my morning coffee I’ll update my Mahler 9 data base. Stumbled across this “Live” Barshai 1993 recording yesterday on one of the shelves, one I had forgotten about. It’s very good for live and Barshai is well known for his interpretations of Mahler outside Russia.
Gave it a listen all the way thru. Interesting especially as the booklet notes point out, for a long time under Stalin and his subsequent replacements, Mahler’s music was not permitted to be performed, as was most western composer’s music. Even Stravinsky was banned as he left Russia for Europe and America. Barshai himself had been banned as well from the moment he applied to emigrate and also because he was a close friend of Shostakovich. But with changing times and party policies he was at last invited back to Russia to guest conduct the Moscow Radio Symphony in 1993.
The orchestra musicians were unfamiliar with this music and had never played (or perhaps even heard) this music before so Barshai requested 6 rehearsals.
The Russian orchestral sound is rich, thick, and dark. Makes an interesting contrast with many western orchestra’s house sounds.
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Although Karajan is not remembered as a Mahlerian, aside from his very good live 9th, the recording he made of the 5th continues to be a reference point for me. I have been through many 5th but for some reason Karajan’s and Bernstein’s are the ones that speak most to me. I recommend the Blu-ray Audio version of Karajan’s as a superb remastering.
@FLTWS, your write-ups are fantastic and thought provoking. Keep’em coming!
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Thanks Mark617. And I do like Karajan’s 5th but for whatever reason the bass came thru sounding anemic last time I listened and I have the original CD issue. Maybe time to give it another go. I like both of his 9ths. The first is an analog recording and I really like the way he whips up the close of that devilish 3rd movement rondo-burleske.
His Bruckner is also outstanding.
For whatever reason some conductors don’t always record all their capable of conducting and come across differently in the concert hall. I’m not sure if Charles Dutoit has ever recorded any Mahler but I’ve seen his 5th and 3rd in Philly years ago and both were spectacular, especially the 3rd.
Funny story, I have seen him do the 5th twice. But on one occasion I was down with 2 friends. At the point in the closing bars he whips up his arm to signal the breakneck run at the finale. The baton slipped out of his hand and floated out over and towards the area where the 2nd violins and violas meet. The audience in unison could be heard sucking air because there is an ever so short, fraction of a second pause in the music. But the orchestra did not miss a beat, they played on like nothing happened on to the spectacular final explosion. The audience burst out in applause, howling approval and was a little giggly and looking at each other all at the same. From that time on we always referred to that performance as “the baton toss”!
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For the first time in many years I bought and received CDs! Dont have a transport so just ripped them.
Both are Currentzis:
His Beethoven’s 7th releases next week in CD. Will get that as well. Cheaper than downloading a copy, which is patently ridiculous.
For complete insanity I might buy and download a higher than redbook resolution copy of one his works and see if I can hear any differences.
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I guess to keep it on the Mahler track I should order the Currentzis M6!
@FLTWS - The bass on the Blu-ray version is anything BUT anemic! The sound is much better than the CD reissues: the edginess is gone and the orchestra sounds “brawny”.
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I may have to that a try.
The strange thing is my VK 6th is just fine sounding all around.
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The VK 6th was always a warmer recording, even when it came out in LP. It may have been when DGG decided to abandon the bass wimpy recordings… 
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True, I had both on LP at one time. It really took some labels time to understand how to use the new digital medium, especially when it came to transferring old analog recordings to digital.
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I just found this forum, and seriously, where has this been all my life??? This is a wonderful treasure trove of all you passionate folks! I’ve never heard Vanska’s M5 and thanks to @FLTWS I’m listening to that right now.
Big recommendation for Jascha Heifetz playing Tchaikovsky’s Violin Concerto w/ Reiner/CSO, RCA / Living Stereo. Heifetz is truly a legendary master and plays with a gusto and technical level that is rarely heard.
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Classic RCA Living Stereo.
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Just opened another time capsule. Many years ago I packed up my dad’s lifetime passion for collecting classical (he didn’t listen to vinyl for the last 20+ years) into wooden crates and had them in my garage. Slowly opening up one dusty filthy crate at a time, and just pulled these out.
There’s so much Shostakovich, Mozart and other composers that are not my taste. Just not sure now how to catalog and sell hundreds of records. Donate maybe?
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best place to catalog, value, & buy/sell records is discogs.com
Or contact a reputable record shop and see if they’re interested in buying the collection as a lot.
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That Haitink Scheherazade is a favorite of mine. Had it on LP and replaced with the CD. His closing moments of the 2nd movement are excitingly paced. Funny how we remember things like that, like favorite golf holes. Alas, the back and knees and father time retired me from small ball.
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