I’m not sure big stage is a function of 2nd Harmonic distortion, it might contribute something. The WA33 does pretty well with stage, and it’s balanced, comparable to the DNA’s and EC’s.
The Viva Egoista is bigger though and single ended, but 2A3’s and 845’s are both very linear tubes to start wit, so you’re probably talking 2nd Harmonic at -50 or -60 dB’s at headphone levels even SE.
I think it’s a combination of things, probably phase is a part of it. Leading. Edge portrayal, blackness, probably unintentional crosstalk between the channels.I recently swapped to a DC heater on my 2A3 amp and the loss of the barely audible mains hum had the effect of opening the stage up further,
The problem with people describing headphone staging, is people describe it like speaker staging, and i’s nothing like that.
There is a lot of interpretation going on. Width is readily apparent, height tends to be split by frequency range, and I think in most cases is pure interpretation, depth tends to be used to describe the ability to resolve individual instruments placed in the same space left to right.
I think depth and height have more meaningful representation with binaural, or even just material where the space is mic’d.
Although they do sound a lot like nearfield speakers, the SR1-A and MySphere’s, still stage in and around your head, albeit in a slightly different way.
@Lou_Ford nailed it. Synergy. OTL is a different circuit and generally works only (or works best) with high impedance headphones. OTL may be perceived as more intimately tied to the natural sound of the driver. Non-OTL amps are more versatile, but may be perceived as putting their own character above the headphones. Or not. A non-OTL amp’s character may be superior too. YMMV.
Also note that there are many ‘hybrid’ tube amps and tube buffer stage devices on the market. These use tubes for tone/character but rely on a solid state amp for most or additional amplification. They can be great or mediocre, and are often less expensive and less “tube-like” than a full tube amp.
So true, I feel extremely lucky to be getting to explore all of these options. I think it’s a very different thing compared to speakers, but I am glad to have a reference to understand this phenomenon in the context of headphones.
Trying it out with a few new pieces, and I have seen a bit more of the staging with certain ones. I listened to about half of the Everything Is Going to be Okay album by Gogo Penguin and definitely was able to hear a bit more spacing as well as vertical - thought definitely frequency dependent on that aspect.
I will definitely check out those Chesky recordings. Very curious how they will sound. I wonder if those recordings will sound like they have great sound staging even on “intimate” headphones…
I can’t comment for sure on the sound, as I have not heard any OTL amps, but from what I have read, output transformer coupled (OTC) amps depend heavily on the quality of the transformers, and that correlates to a great degree with price. The OTL designs were basically a way for people to try tube amps at a lower price with the caveat that they only really work well with high impedance headphones. I’m not sure if there are actual sonic advantages inherent to that design, but for the Hifiman HE1000 and other low impedance headphones, you will definitely want an OTC or hybrid to avoid a major impedance mismatch and associated changes to frequency response.
That’s a good point. No need to be in a huge hurry. I am trying with some EQ and different recordings. So far it still isn’t hitting the spot, but I will give it a few more listens before making a final call.
I’m curious about them as well. Generally I’m not a big fan of bright, and it seems that most of the Hifiman models lean bright according to the reviews. That’s my biggest issue with the HD 800S. With that said, some have said that the treble, while emphasized, is more balanced with some of them, so I would be curious to try some. My other big issue with the HE1000 with researching them is that I can’t seem to figure out the differences between the models. If there is a least bright model, I would be interested in trying it out. My only serious planars are the LCD-X 2021, and I think the timbre on those is a little weird. I wonder if the HE1000 would be more natural. Thoughts on this would be appreciated as well!
It’s not a high quality recording but the album “Up Close” by Ottmar Liebert & Luna Negra is something I like to hear the difference in spacing and location of instruments on headphones.
In particular I use “La Luna” on my test track list (I think I may have referred to it a few times ) as I like the way the guitars are placed but the whole album is binaural.
I am very treble sensitive myself, and noticed the same with 800s. When it comes to Hifiman, I first tried Sundara and Ananda, and there were definitely some spikes that I wasn’t happy with. But then I tried the Arya WITH Dekoni pads, and I found something really special there. Because part of the treble tuning is that quality of airiness that’s tied to soundstage, which I absolutely love. But it can’t be spiky. And the Dekoni pads really helped with this. I am using them now on the 1000 and it’s wonderful.
But as @generic and others mentioned, we shouldn’t judge the 800s without hearing it on tubes. I think I’ll have to go to Canjam for that
Thank you for the suggestion! I will check it out!
I actually am doing pretty much all of my listening on the WA 22, which is a beefy OTC tube amp - and I rolled in a couple of different sets of tubes to see if any of them provided good synergy for me with the 800S. I also tried them with the Tube Mini dongle. I didn’t find the magic, but I have always been one for more smoothness and musicality. I prioritize detail a bit lower, so I think that may be the issue for me here. For someone who loves the fine details and is just looking to take a tiny bit of the edge off of the HD 800S, I can see why they would feel that tubes make such a huge difference. For someone like me, I’m already pretty content with a headphone that compromises on detail in favor of pleasant neutral tonality and using that on tubes anyway. Sibilance is my mortal enemy, and it takes very little to rip me right out of the enjoyment envelope when listening, but lack of detail just doesn’t affect me the same way, and all the detail in the world doesn’t seem to keep me in the zone if I start hearing those crackly “S” sounds. The Focal Clear is right on the line for what I can tolerate without being too bright or sibilant, and I don’t think people would generally describe that headphone as bright or sibilant generally… I’m also thinking that, to some degree, the sound staging effect is an aspect of detail more generally, so it is something that my listening brain is willing to sacrifice to keep rich tonal density and balanced frequency response and avoid being disturbed by any harshness.
Still, curiosity springs eternal, and I wonder if the HE1000 Stealth would be able to stay on the nice side of the sibilance line while providing an interesting new experience of supreme detail while still being enjoyable. I have also wondered the same thing about the Abyss Diana MR and the ZMF Caldera, but those are getting a bit up there in the price range to be experimenting with, particularly with the ZMF, as they might not be as easy to return / trade / sell for similar to purchase price if I don’t love them…
Not sure about the narration of position, but all the stuff here from Chesky
can be purchased in either “The Hi-Res PCM Package (which includes a 192/24 ALAC speaker mix, a 96/24 ALAC headphone mix, & a DSD speaker mix) or The DSD & 48/16 Package (which includes a DSD speaker mix, a DSD headphone mix, a 48/16 WAV speaker mix, and a 48/16 WAV headphone mix)…”
I believe it is all recorded binaurally, then mixed differently for speakers vs headphones.
It needs more than taking the edges off. The HD 800 S (and HD 600) is thin on the low end. Unless the amp or EQ strengthens bass and the low midrange, many listeners stand to be disappointed. I never liked the 800 S on neutral/clean amps myself. I believe that @Resolve and others recently discussed adding a default bass shelf across many/most headphones because they tend to struggle with bass. (And, taste profiles are more bassy than when the 800 and 600 were released.)
I describe the OG Clear as neutral-bright. It rolls off the treble versus some other Focal products, but it can be harsh and edgy on a bright and dry DAC/amp setup.
Is your DAC a cause? The 800 S is not harsh or sibilant on a well-matched setup. I find it easy on the ears and delicate – moving to Focal for more punch and definition. I used to often think of headphones as you describe before moving to the Bifrost 2/64. Before that, I was able to very quickly identify my amps blind because of the whines, whistles, and other artifacts that my old AKM delta-sigma DAC let through.
Looking a bit more at planars that might be a bit neutral and still fairly spacious, the Resolve’s of the Modhouse Tungsten seems to suggest it would fit that description. @Svadhyaya, did I see on that thread that you have a pair? It looked like you had mentioned ordering them, but just wondering if you’ve gotten to try them. They seem like they might be a much better fit for me than the Hifiman options… I think the WA22 second gen can run them - @Torq’s calculator shows that we should expect about 1,400 mW of power to go into them, which looks like it would equate to 99 dB max volume, which is louder than I think I would ever listen, and I think that’s based on standard tubes, so the higher power ones like 7236 / 421a / 5998 in that amp will probably give a little more headroom.
I tend to think headphones should be evaluated in terms of bass to treble delta, more so than their specific features, like a bass shelf. But some of these features are also regularly preferred. I just feel its weird to expect something like that from an open-back headphone for example.
Interesting point. I have been listening on my E70 Velvet, which might have something to do with it. The only other one I have tried with the 800S is the undisclosed (afaik) model of ESS Sabre in the Tube Mini. Later I will pull my Iris 12th / Ares 12th combo out of my stereo and see if that changes things. Good thought!
EDIT: the E70 Velvet has the AKM 4499EX if people are unaware, while the Ares is an R-2R model and Iris is a DDC used for electrical isolation and temperature-compensated clocking.
Just serves to reinforce that ALL OF THIS is in our heads. As much as we want to believe there are ‘objective’ qualities to sound, there aren’t. “Wiggly air” without a brain to interpret it as sound is just wind - what your brain does with it and what my brain does with it might be entirely different.
I’ll be extremely honest and say I wasn’t holding my breath for this to help at all with the 800S, but I do hear a major difference with the Ares / Iris. This, combined with Resolve’s EQ suggestions from his review definitely bring the sibilance under vastly better control. I don’t really hear any significant issues there at this point - to the extent it shows up at all, it’s below a threshold where I don’t think it will bother me. There is definitely still a bit of treble-forwardness to my ear, but not an insane amount. On some standard recordings I was listening to for comparison, I do also hear quite a bit more lateralization. It’s not like speakers, but I definitely can see some of what people are talking about with the sound staging in these. I really like the tonality of the E70 Velvet, and I think it does better on DSD than the Ares, (though with the Ares I generally just convert DSD to 384 / 24 PCM in Roon) but I have to say, it seems as though it was destroying sound stage. Also of note, I was using the linear filter on the E70 Velvet, not the minimum phase one that it defaults to, so I don’t think phase effects (at least not those potentially caused by a filter) were the issue. I see what you mean about it sounding delicate and detailed. This is a surprising development. Thank you very much for the suggestion! Now I’m off to get some of those Chesky recordings to try out.
It sure does! I’m very curious about it indeed. Do you know if there is any difference in the Mimic edition of the Tungsten? Also, is it only in the purple color? It looks cool to me, but I wonder if it would have a negative impact on resale if I grab one and don’t want to keep it in the long run…
I’m calling out @Svadhyaya to read our exchange – regarding synergy and evaluating headphones through reliance on one arbitrary chain. Many of us have tried to use quick and easy a priori methods (errr…ASR’s metrics) to assess personal preferences and failed.
The Bifrost 2 (and later 2/64) transformed my opinion of many headphones. The Lokius analog EQ corrects all sorts of headphone and amp quirks.
Start from the source. Garbage in, garbage out. Don’t build your house on the sand without a solid foundation.
Well, that is quite an impressive effect. It’s pretty wild how far outside the head that feels. I guess the effect is similar to Dolby Headphone or now called Dolby Atmos for Headphones, which can create a convincing surround effect for headphones in games (and probably other appropriately set up media as well).
I’m with you brother. I got an Ares 12th last month and I love it. And I actually ordered the Lokius a few days ago! Can’t wait to fiddle with some knobs
As you pointed out, I’ve only been limited by the more clinical Topping amp. Actually I’d love your recommendation for a non-OTL tube amp, the more affordable the better
Full tube amps? Affordable? He he, aren’t you funny!
I’ve been using this $3K+ Decware amp for 90% of my listening after receiving it late last year. I’m using my home built Bottlehead Crack OTL amp too, but it’s not remotely as capable as the Decware. Still, with a ~$500 build cost it performs magic with the the HD 6XX and Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm. It’s not technically capable of reaching the HD 800 S’s potential, and OTL doesn’t work with the Clear. I have a nice but now largely inactive RebelAmp Class A solid state. I still recommend it and do like it, but the Decware is on another level.
EDIT: More generally, there’s a thread on amp recommendations (and other amp threads too). As a rule, you can get a taste of “tube tone” with $500 hybrids such as the Schiit Lyr, and then there’s a price/quality jump up to $2K and above. My Lyr 3 is rarely used these days.
) as I like the way the guitars are placed but the whole album is binaural.
