The fact that you couldn’t hear a difference between balanced and SE outputs on the Jot 2 makes me wonder if something is up with your listening chain. This isn’t meant to be condescending or a defense of the Jot 2’s sound, but I can hear a difference, and consistently prefer balanced, even for easy-to-drive headphones. (That comment was limited to the Jot 2, I’m not saying balanced is better on every amp). Even Schiit says there’s a difference, with the SE sounding a bit softer.
I do think you have discerning ears (or you wouldn’t be on your never-ending journey to find audio heaven ) so it makes me wonder if the 4490 DAC card is throttling the sound, as @bpcarb suggested recently. I’ve never tried a DAC card in my Jot 2, but I have done a comparison of the Asgard 3 with multibit card vs being fed from a Bifrost 2. I really enjoyed the MB card on the Asgard 3, but the sound really opened up with the BF2. Have you tried an external DAC, and if not, can you get your hands on one before you send the Jot 2 back?
I don’t think I am there yet. But, I don’t think I am far off either. I wouldn’t be surprised if I have already heard the amp/dac I end up with. I simply haven’t been convinced of that yet. (this is not uncommon for me in any of my hobby journeys).
Need to hear some class a/r2r/bifrost.
I am definitely function/practicality first. And, I don’t mind spending the money when it becomes clear it’s the best for me. And I don’t baby things, so if that is an issue, it becomes a problem. But, as far as I know, ZMF is exceptionally well built and just happen to look good as well. For me, that’s fine.
Well, the way people talk about it, is it’s less detailed and smoother. More tubey maybe on SE? I think my headphones are doing a lot of that internally.
I like the hp-2 because they are extremely smooth without feeling like I lost detail. The other thing, I learned early on with the arya, that excessive detail did not give me more listening joy. And I generally liked a smoother sound out of them. So it makes sense that I would gravitate toward smooth headphones. And that may make the jot less noticeable?
I have opinions. Doesn’t mean my ears can hear anything. It may just be that I don’t hear the nuance in this case. And I am ok with that too.
The 4490 being a limit is a real possibility. I just have no way to confirm that with the equipment I currently possess.
I have not tried an external dac. And I almost bought the Zen Stack to compare directly, but decided against it. At this point, if schiit ever responds with an RA, I only have until the 4th to return “officially”.
This may end up being a casualty of the short return policy (also, odd they haven’t given me an RA yet, it’s over a week now).
What I think would be more useful, is still having a set of planars. I think amp characteristics would jump out more over the hp-2. And if that’s the case, then I just know the hp-2 are the “problem” in the chain. Which is also fine since I like them so much.
But, yeah, I am baffled on this one. Maybe it’s the cables? Hart audio all the way!
Weakest DAC in Schiit’s lineup. Absolutely holds the Jotunheim 2 back. Even a Modi 3+ is a useful improvement. Modius might be a sweet spot. Bifrost 2 is where it’ll really start to show the best of both units. Or go with another decent external DAC (doesn’t really matter if it is balanced or not due to Jotunheim 2’s architecture).
Would depend on the headphones, and to a lesser extent the source, but I have a slight general preference for the Lyr 3.
Though I’d probably do a Saga+ feeding a Jotunheim 2 (with it’s volume perpetually maxed, and using the Saga+ for volume and source switching) instead of either on their own at this point.
Edit: At one point, my office rig was a Bifrost MB (predates Bifrost 2), into the original Saga, feeding both a Jotunheim and Lyr 2. That was a really flexible setup and worked well with every headphone I threw at it. (Both amps were run with volume maxed, using the Saga for volume control).
It was mostly for the superb relay-switched volume control (attenuator), combined with the ability to switch in/out the Saga’s tube stage combined with the need for three switchable inputs (Bifrost MB, my office turntable and my workstation’s native output).
But it also gave more “flavor” options than just Jotunheim or Lyr 2 on their own.
Seems like lokius would be difficult to place in that arrangement (if multiple in/out was in use)
I haven’t noticed imbalance in the jot. At least not anything like the micro signature had at low levels. If single in and single out, do you just get the option of additional tubeyness?
Take the single-ended output from Saga into the Lokius. Then run the XLR output from Lokius to Jotunheim 2 and the RCA output from Lokius to the Lyr 3.
It was less about channel imbalance (though that is a potential benefit) and more because having a relay-switched discrete attenuator is still cleaner than a pot.
Just read about these. So instead of an unpredictable scaling between two sets of resistance, it switches between 64 discrete fixed resistances to control volume? (This terminology may not be quite right. The important part is there are steps). Basically a switch between 64 different options that become steps in volume.
I get how this controls channel imbalance because of matched resistors. I don’t understand how it is otherwise better. Is it a shorter less complicated signal path? Because it’s a switch similar to a simple input selector?
Learning stuff and it’s been over 2 decades since I have done any electrical engineering type stuff (and then only a hobby)
With the volume maxed on the Jot 2 at high gain (which to me, sounds preferable over low gain), I do get an undesirable amount of audible hiss on most of my headphones, and with my tube amp feeding the Jot as a preamp, I hear the buzzing noise of the tubes.
What is your approach to this? Would you just keep the Jot on low gain, or can something be done to address the noise floor on high gain?
I would assume: turn down the jot volume or switch to low gain or both. Yeah, the saga can’t be the only control. But for a given headphone, you adjust once, then use the saga remote or knob.
I know this would be an issue with my dunu zen as I can hear noise in high gain with it.
I am not sold on the saga+ yet, but I am seriously contemplating just getting the bifrost and lyr and waiting it out. Problem is I want to compare the lyr and the jot.
I have a Bifrost 2 as my DAC as well, and I’m very happy with how it pairs up with the Jot 2. So might be worthwhile to try a Bifrost 2 before you sell/return the Jot to find out if that changes how you feel about it. They’re still not readily available from Schiit, so you could sell it used probably without much extra loss if that’d be past your return window. I’d say it might be worth the bit of extra loss for the experience you’ll get from it.
I haven’t heard a Lyr 3 myself, so I can’t comment on that. But I have a Lokius as well sandwiched between my Jot and Bifrost, which is another way to dial in some flavour on demand, and I’m really happy with what it adds to my setup as a whole. Not a substitute for a tube preamp of course, but a different approach that might suit you.
The intent was the other way. If I liked the amp, I was going to get the bifrost at some point in the future. If I thought the amp needed the bifrost, I wouldn’t have ordered right now. Unfortunately, I don’t like to spend energy on re-selling. So it is going back. (If schiit ever responds to the RA request).
Schiit says don’t put the lokius stacked with the jot. Something about large transformers effecting it. I asked for clarification and it is another thing schiit hasn’t responded to (could be a schiit joke from the faq). And again, I was intending to buy the lokius (technically the loki mini since the lokius wasn’t out yet) if I liked the jot. Probably whenever I bought the bifrost.
I also have historically disliked EQ. Wanted to see if hardware EQ makes a difference.
I am not opposed to buying again. But this product doesn’t stand on its own for me currently. And that was the explicit intent of the purchase.
IMO you are doing it all wrong. You must test synergies. A different/better DAC can transform an amp. Start with the source: quality losses can never be recovered.
Uncompressed music → weak DAC → any amp → any headphones = mediocre
Compressed music → any DAC → any amp → any headphones = fair to mediocre at best
As @generic pointed out, synergy is key. The built-in AKM DAC module is a notoriously mediocre performer, and the Jot 2 is a very capable amp. It’s like upgrading to a top tier GPU and finding the difference in gaming performance underwhelming, while you’re still using an outdated/mediocre CPU. The 2 work in tandem; The greater the difference in relative performance between the 2, the less you’ll benefit from the potential the better component has.
I was aware of this, but tried it to figure out if it was actually a problem or not. The noise floor increased slightly, but still far from becoming audible at even the highest volume levels I can comfortably listen to. I’d rather have the Lokius stacked with the rest, since there’s no practical benefit for me in not stacking it.
I’m also not a fan of digital EQ, as it almost always comes with some compromise, most notably a diminished sense of dynamic contrast. The Lokius doesn’t suffer from those compromises. At least no compromises that are noticeable to my ears and undesirable. I bought the Lokius to find out if it’d work better for me than digital EQ since I don’t need the precision of a PEQ anyways, and I find that it certainly does. And it has been surprisingly beneficial to be able to adjust the tonal balance on the fly to benefit the music I’m listening to. Some recordings just sound too bright, too bassy, too bass-light etc, and the Lokius has genuinely offered me an alternative to just skipping tracks as a result.
Sure, but I still would have thought a $500 amp/dac can beat a $109 dongle. Again, the intent was to get to bifrost/ares or possibly better at a later point. Schiit chose to build a product with a built-in card as an option. Given my new found knowledge, I consider that a fundamentally useless decision to me. To me, this simply means schiit should have done better on the cards or not bothered with it at all. And, again, that is ok, but it probably means I shouldn’t touch the lyr either unless I am willing to go for the bifrost or similar as well.
This is good to know. As stacking is the only option in my space. (unless I can find a stacking shelf that is barely larger than the schiit footprint in all dimensions)
This means there are fundamentally no baby steps to get there in a progression. And that’s fine, but it means I am not buying $3,000 in schiit right now to determine if it can beat a $109 dac/amp. By this argument, I must put the bifrost, lokius, lyr/jot and saga all in the same system to find out if it works. And, again, I am ok with that determination. But it means I am more likely to buy a burson + ares/pegasus/bifrost when I am ready. The intent was to have the jot now as an upgrade, and then add things to it, probably eventually replacing the jot with something like the burson over time, but maybe not. If I must test it all, I think schiit amps will get skipped as there is no longer a value proposition to it for me. ( the value being that I could work my way there over the coming months / years while still experiencing upgrades along the way ).
This is interesting to me! I haven’t listened to what changes carefully it just immediately annoys me. And since dynamic contrast is something I seem to value greatly, maybe this is why. Makes me even more interested in the Lokius. It’s certainly on the table for whatever stack I end up getting.
@Jsim and @generic: You are both assuming I will suddenly like the result enough to make a $1,200 (jot with dac + bifrost) stack worth keeping once there is a bifrost in it. That may be true, but it may not. A lot of feedback on the bifrost also says it makes small differences. Hence starting with the amp that supposedly makes the most difference after the headphones. And my past stacks in that price range were “meh”. I am not saying a90/d90 is good, but it was very far from being worth the price tag to me.
My next step will probably be a full stack at once. But not today. Or, I may just go buy the zen stack, or re-buy the micro signature, since I know I liked that with basically every headphone I used on it.
If you guys have a baby steps (for monetary reasons) methodology to get there, I am all ears. Is there any other DAC that competes and is worthwhile with the jot that costs a lot less? Bifrost is out in the short term.
) so it makes me wonder if the 4490 DAC card is throttling the sound, as @bpcarb suggested recently. I’ve never tried a DAC card in my Jot 2, but I have done a comparison of the Asgard 3 with multibit card vs being fed from a Bifrost 2. I really enjoyed the MB card on the Asgard 3, but the sound really opened up with the BF2. Have you tried an external DAC, and if not, can you get your hands on one before you send the Jot 2 back?
It may just be that I don’t hear the nuance in this case. And I am ok with that too.
