The 95% Solutions

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I like your little asterisk note about more expensive solutions. At some point, I think that ostentation becomes a factor. Maybe an $8000 DAC sounds better than a $2000 DAC, But how audible is the next $10k above that?

Turntables got to be that way some years ago. I always enjoyed my basic AR 1a table. Totally manual, very simple, really nice sound. I always WANTED to have a tone-arm lift, for those times that I might be shaky. And sort of thought anti-skate might be interesting to try, but it didnā€™t really make that much difference.

I upgraded from that turntable to a $2500 VPI scout / Ortofon 2M Bronze combination. In doing that I went from a 94% solution (never could figure out what cart to use if I wanted to upgrade the classic SHURE V-15 type III improved in the AR) to what for me is a 98% solution. Fancier tone-arms, moving coil, yes, I know that they can make a slight difference.

But there are a few handfuls of high end turntables in the $50k-140K class, with $10k+ cartridges to match. I could do 100% of what I want for way under $8000 total, and at this point with the happiness I have with the 98%, itā€™s the LAST component Iā€™d upgrade.

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23

The ā€œlaw of diminishing returnsā€ remains as big a bitch as it ever was. Maybe more so, as what constitutes baseline performance has steadily advanced and there is progressively less and less potential for improvement.

I would defy most non-experienced/practiced/trained listeners to tell an original Modi MB and an original Bifrost MB apart in blind A/B/X testing - let alone do so reliably. And thatā€™s just at the $250 to $600 level - with two DACs that have notable and obvious differences in their technical execution.

Hell, it took me hours of sighted listening and comparisons with both units, taking copious notes, and covering a ton of music, in an otherwise much more resolving chain than theyā€™d typically ever be paired with, to be able to do it, and that was with a good idea of what to listen for and copious experience doing just that.

It was a similar case, initially at least, when comparing M-Scaler -> DAVE to just DAVE (which is easy, since thereā€™s a ā€œbypassā€ option on the M-Scaler). And that M-Scaler, depending on which version you opt for, can cost more than the DAC it feeds ā€¦ even though the difference is, from my perspective, last 5% (or less). Itā€™s an important 5%, when it comes down to it. But we were already ā€œmost of the way thereā€ with stuff vastly less expensive.

This is not to say that there arenā€™t differences further up the spectrum. Itā€™s also not to say that the more expensive stuff is better, audibly or measurably than (MUCH) cheaper gear. Iā€™ve run into that plenty of times ā€¦ and with some extreme price multipliers involved.

With turntables, I think the changes are a lot more susceptible changes. Just adjusting the tracking force makes immediately, and clearly, audible (and measurable) changes in the resultant sound, and thatā€™s without changing any components. Platter speed (or speed-consistency) is another one.

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24

That kind of detail is why I pay attention to your comments.

And yourā€™e very right with turntables. Setup is critical with most tone arms, and can be extremely so with certain designs. Not just tracking force, but tracking angle, including vertical tracking angle. With arms that sit on a pivot point, proper lateral balance is also critical. (Most VPI arms).

The other thing is when I hear an audible difference, it is sometimes just that, a difference. Not necessarily better or worse. Today I let my nephew listen to the Grado RS1e / DFC combination coming out of ghu knows what on his iPad. He thought it sounded really good, but Iā€™m sure he didnā€™t know what to listen for.

And good music can survive any number of recording and playback sins and STILL be good music.

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25

Given my educational background in biological and psychological factors, Iā€™m sincerely dismissive of my own perceptions. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and conscious or unconscious urges to justify oneā€™s spending and decisions can undermine any semblance of objectivity.

Any sort of newly developed drug must be double-blind tested, or both the doctor and patient tend to either support or debunk the product. Audio and entertainment gets all fouled up because the artistry of equipment provides a level of enjoyment in itself. One can either buy a cheap US muscle car for $35K with fast 0-60 times or buy a refined German car for $100K with similar speed. The performance and ability to win a race may well be identical, but the fit and finish are wildly different.

Bottom line at the bottom: Know what your goals are. If itā€™s pure audio quality then reach a viable plateau and move on. If itā€™s equipment art, collecting, exploring technology, etc., then spend away.

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26

I would not disagree with any of that.

Just in case Iā€™m not being clear, however ā€¦ the statement youā€™re quoting was me recounting what it took in terms of sighted preparation, listening and practice in order to be able to reliably pass a blind A/B/X comparison of the two units in question.

Prior to all that practicing and opportunity to make ā€œobservationsā€ in a sighted fashion, in a blind test I couldnā€™t tell them apart with any degree of reliably at all , much less identify which was which.

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27

One joy of a 95% solution is I can look in my wallet an reliably pass an A/B testā€¦

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28

Iā€™ve been thinking about this a lot todayā€¦

I am beginning to think 95% is also very arbitrary/subjective.

Iā€™m definitely in the collection club mentality. But at the same time I can appreciate what each bit of kit does.

So it is hard for me to not say Iā€™m 100% satisfied with a particular thing that does what it is intending to do.

Good example, I think the Empyrean are phenomenal on all fronts and I can 100% appreciate them for what they doā€¦but they arenā€™t for me. But in the moment of listening to them I can be 100% appreciative of them.

Which brings the whole, question back to what makes up the 100%. For different people, it will be different things, from aesthetics to pure quality of sound, to how it conveys said sound. Comfort, feel, etc, now there are also things that just wonā€™t fly with individuals and are instantly not 100% satisfaction.

As you refine your tastes, you quickly can determine yup not for me, it sounds/looks/comfort are excellent but it just doesnā€™t have that final ā€œ je ne sais quoiā€ to pull me in and ā€œneedā€ them.

@Torq and I had a short discussion on a similar train of thought the other day, about something really needing to hit that ā€œsomething specialā€ level for the ā€œGive it to meā€ gif lol.

Iā€™m also a big fan of trying new gear, itā€™s fun, but can get pricey in these hobbies of ours lol. So Iā€™ll try and find like minded people both in sound preference and aesthetics to help me base some buying decisions, also helps to trust and respect those peopleā€™s experiences and knowledge to help in that pursuit.

Which brings me back to the 95% -100%ā€¦in the moment of a new toy I try and appreciate it 100% for what it is trying to do and the work and labor that went into building it.

While at the same time realizing that 100% satisfaction is unobtainableā€¦unless you give me unlimited wishes from a genie in a bottle lolā€¦even then I would just end up wanting more, more, moreā€¦lol

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29

Thank you

30

Yup, I just canā€™t get my email, browse the web, or text on that AIWA. Oh well.

Using the Android devices, they have their advantages. But, I just keep getting drawn back to my venerable collection of CDs. Since Iā€™m one of those types that likes to listen to whole albums at a sitting, this is a fine set up for me. Iā€™ve never been a cassette compilation or playlist kind of guy, and I guess I never will be.

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31

Iā€™m with you on the 95/5 extension to the 80/20 rule.

The thing Iā€™ve found is that with some combinations of equipment and recordings I get a glimpse of that elusive 100%. Take the same equipment and a different recording and it drops to 90 - 95% or maybe something less.

So to think of that 100% as the moving target I believe it is, it makes sense to put in the effort to have a setup that gets to 95% and can stretch to the 100% to surprise you.

Mark Gosdin

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32

I am to a point where ā€œsomething specialā€ is a very elevated bar (lots of goodness has happened in the last year). And ā€œmust haveā€ has become ā€œmust have as long it will replace something(s)ā€.

A year ago, Iā€™d have bought both the Empyrean and the RAD-0 as straight additions to my collection.

Today, neither directly replaces anything for me, let alone more than one thing, I already own. And while theyā€™d be easy purchase decisions if I didnā€™t already have the Abyss and LCD-4 (respectively), I do. Theyā€™re still both tempting on practical grounds (and deltas in performance are definitely in the ~5% arena vs. what I have) ā€¦ but thatā€™s tempered with then wanting to sell the Abyss and LCD-4 ā€¦ neither of which have particularly great resale value right now.

That said, Iā€™m still hedging on the RAD-0 ā€¦ the switch from being gung-ho on getting them vs. now hedging on it somewhat has nothing to do with the headphones themselves.

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33

When I started this thread, I opined that the 95% solution might be the last safety net in the rabbit hole. Obviously, for some of us the net has failed.

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34

Tossing a 95% data point in the wind, my 95% is eitr -> modi mb (new firmware) -> mcth -> verum 1 (with zmf lambskin pads for my dumbo ears).

Do I like my amethyst -> mogwai se -> auteur better? Sure. But it is sometimes hard for me to justify the price delta.

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35

This for me ties into the 95% conversation, because I know that headphones matter, a lot. And I know that having an amp sufficient to power headphones to the proper volume without clipping matters, a lot.

But beyond that, I am extraordinarily uncertain that anything else does matter. High-bitrate MP3 vs FLAC provably is measurably different, but I donā€™t know if I can actually hear it ā€“ I never can on sample ā€œFLAC vs. MP3ā€ things, even sighted; but believe I hear a difference on Qobuz vs Google Play, but there are a zillion factors beside compression that could come in there, and the beauty of streaming service DRM is that it resists the easy ABX tests that would let me settle it in my own mind. Iā€™m even more skeptical of the difference between 16/44 and 24/96.

And on the hardware side, I donā€™t have the equipment or helpers to do blind tests of equipment myself; when I try to do the best level-matched sighted tests I can manage, I think I can hear subtle differences between entire amp/DAC/transport chains where every component is different, but I donā€™t know if Iā€™d actually pass a blind test on it. I think I would, but lots of people think theyā€™d pass blind tests they fail.

But even if I can tell a difference, the fact that Iā€™m not certain about it means that weā€™re talking about something pretty subtle. So for me, the combination of preferred headphone and good-enough amp seems to be something like 95% of what matters all by itself, with everything else ā€“ lossless compression, amp quality, DAC, source, digital input esoterica ā€“ just being in that last 5%, and maybe not even that much.

But I donā€™t know, maybe itā€™s just that Iā€™m doubting my impressions too hard, and there really is something there.

For those whoā€™ve done blind testing and found differences between different components, Iā€™m curious as to what sense of magnitude youā€™d put on the contribution of different components (while acknowledging that this involves some handwaving, and that itā€™s not exactly quantifiable).

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36

My 95%:
Tidal / Plex / Poweramp (Android)
iFi Micro-DSD BL
E-MU Teaks

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37

I like that post. I know exactly what you mean about not having the equipment or helpers to do blind tests yourself. With regard to some of the file format differences, given that I canā€™t just do an A/B/X I know that I have difficulty just identifying two samples of the same song heard a few minutes apart.

Sometimes there are telltales, often in drums and cymbals. In other well-recorded pieces, like classical guitar, I can hear differences in room air, sound from walls, but thatā€™s only because I am tuned in to that particular kind of sound.

I have found, however, that there are occasional demo or sample recordings that switch back and forth, so that I donā€™t HAVE to do the A/B personally. And on those, I can clearly hear a difference between MP3 and FLAC, or between Redbook 16/44 and MQA 24/192 FLAC. Also, the difference is what one would expect, that the lossless or higher bitrate is clearer. Iā€™m MUCH more sensitive to analog differences, such as the quality of a cartridge tracking some difficult vinyl (like the original Blind Faith pressings where the cymbals are near impossible for some styli).

What I find more than anything is ear fatigue. If I listen to lower quality, particularly MP3, I find I just canā€™t listen comfortably for long. This seems consistent with any decent setup, with the exception of car audio, where the inevitable bad driver or need to actually follow a path or gasp, TURN to stay on the pavement will break my concentration.

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38

I should add ā€œfor travelā€ things:
iPad Pro 2018
iFi xDSD
iSine 20
Sony MDR1000XM3 for planes & trains (may have the product number off haha)

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39

I was very happy with a Schitt Vahalla2 and HD600ā€™s for months and months with a Schitt Bifrost 1 DAC. streaming from a PC (flacs)ā€¦really a great 95% combination.

ā€¦and I still am happy with this simple setupā€¦and realistically I think a lesser DS dac would suffice as well making this 95% setup even less costly.

Alex

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40

Something like a Focal Elegia or Clear with a decent, high-value Amp and DAC like a SMSL SU-8 + JDS Labs Atom or similar will get you surprisingly close to something extreme high-end like a 1266 or Susvara into a Chord DAVE. Diminishing returns kick in hard and fast in this hobbyā€¦ But if that bit extra is worth it to you and you can afford it. More power to you!

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41

Many here may disagree :stuck_out_tongue:

They have to remember they have been training their ears for years to hear the differences. Focal Clear + Amp/DAC is well beyond end game worthy for the vast majority of people.

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