Power Discussion: Power cables, conditioners, regenerators, surge protectors, outlets, dedicated lines

[fzman1956]

Seems like the term ‘regenerator’ throws some folks off. Generating electricity involves something turning a spin-y electromagentic thingie ( generator) so you have electricity where there was none before. I am not sure what re-generating is, maybe it’s like a twice-baked potato?

The Power Plants are ac-dc-ac converters. That is, you use DSP to generate a sine wave of the appropriate frequency, and feed it to an amplifier capable of generating line voltage at usable current levels… (110/120V 60Hz, US, e.g.)

So-called regenerators used to be class AB amps, and were big, hot, and output hlf or less of the juice they consumed. Msot of them these days are Class D, and much smaller, cooler-running and more efficient.

So, you are, in effect, asking why a power cord can influence the sound/peformance of an amplifier, one that is powerinig some or all of your system.

[NickZ]

I just realized this thread is for talking about power products without getting sidetracked.

Perhaps my posts can be moved to another thread and continue there if any interest.

[andris]

@NickZ

That kind of freaks me out. The regenerators are marketed (I think) as making your source power irrelevant.

So, this was my exact initial reaction as well. If I’m spending all of this money for a machine to suck in dirty power and spit out clean power, the incoming cable shouldn’t matter, right!?

Turns out it’s a bit more complicated. To be sure, the PowerPlant with the stock cable does make a meaningful difference, which may vary, of course, depending on the “dirtiness” of your power and the sensitivity of your system. However, as with many things audio, there is no single magic solution that solves everything, and the power plant, by itself, can be improved with a better incoming cable. My non-engineering brain has been able to generally suck up stuff like “RF noise” and “directing RF to ground more efficiently” via a cable better designed to do that, but I won’t pretend to understand it anywhere near fully.

Still, going only by my ears, the PowerPlant helps a lot, and it gets better still (noticeably so) with better cables. For more on this exact question, Paul McGowan of PS Audio put out a YouTube video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgbkUEyKpak

If I had to put a rough split on it, I’d say 2/3 PowerPlant, 1/3 cable.

[andris]

@chrisnyc75

Dammit man, why you gotta do this to me? If my PP3>Stellaris>Utopia role model says I need a new power cable you know I have to do that, right? lol

lol - I wish I had my Stellaris already! Still a few months away. Supposedly March.

I’d say it’s worth a try. My typical recommendation is to buy a used unit if you can, so if you decide you don’t notice a difference or it isn’t enough to justify the price, you can just move it along.

[generic]

@fzman1956

So, you are, in effect, asking why a power cord can influence the sound/peformance of an amplifier, one that is powerinig some or all of your system.

I’ve pondered the value of regenerators before, but before buying I wondered about what they’d do with tightly controlled and/or blind testing. Your framing suggests an infinite power source regression with no independent solid ground. One must ultimately control for the characteristics of a community power station (generator), or a local (personal) generator, or the characteristics of both the power station and local regenerator/amp. Audio hobbyists routinely use multiple amps in series to achieve desired qualities (e.g., preamp → power amp), but this sequence must stop somewhere.

In this framing cables could be seen as a distraction versus the characteristics of each power source. Thereby, the generator/regenerator/amp sequence would be the main factor. Class AB versus D amps by each have a (reputation) for distinct characters. To the extent that regeneration can be heard, it actually reflects the characteristics of a hybrid amp. This could account for the sharp differences of opinion regarding cables and regenerators.

[mgosdin]

So, No Two Listeners have the same ears / hear things exactly the same. No two audio systems reproduce a recording the same. And now, no two power chains - Power Plant → Miles of Cables & Transformers → the outlet behind the stereo - are the same either.

What it means to me is that discussing changes in Sound due to Cable changes doesn’t have much meaning outside of personal experience. One person hears an improvement, another hears nothing and a third dives for power switch before something breaks.

Mark Gosdin

[fzman1956]

I am not sure how that follows from anything I said. Are you saying that you should do nothing since you can’t control everything.There are some Japanese audiophiles who have their own transformers connected to the power grid.

[generic]

No, one may wish to control everything.

[pennstac]

Right now, It got windy and I have NO power. Estimated restoration is 1 AM. 247 customers affected. Or so they claim.

[Doc]

I agree. A power regenerator is the way to go, but for those of us on a limited budget and in an apartment to boot, I have run a direct line from my washing machine dedicated outlet directly to my audio equipment. Improved dynamics as long as I don’t put a filter such as the Audioquest PowerQuest 3 in the line which seems to snuff things a bit. Anyone want some spare Audioquest power filters?..

[pennstac]

Looking for some BUDGET Power Conditioner advice

I’m going to have to search in the rat’s nest of cables servicing my TV and main hi-fi system. Something is loose, and my Integra Sound Bar, VPI Scout Turntable, and probably something else is out. Last time I started to look, I moved some cables, and it all came back on, so we’re probably talking about something LOOSE, but I didn’t actually see it.

It’s happened again, so I think I’m going to have to actually try and change some stuff up. All of this crap sits in a large wooden Entertainment System Cabinet, just big enough I can shut the doors on a 42 inch TV. Most of it is plugged into an old MONSTER POWER conditioner that I got when Tweeter went out of business. It’s about a $300 piece back then, so it’s not awful, and has a digital read out of the line voltage. It does NOT have enough outlets for the assorted wall warts and other plugs in stuff.

So there are other things going in power strip, etc.

I want to get everything sorted before I go in on the 25th for hernia surgery, so that when I come back I can relax on the catnapper recliner and enjoy. I don’t want rack mount stuff.

So I want something additional to use as some OK quality power. Something better than a power strip, and that’s less of a power sink than the 1200 watt Tripp Lite computer power conditioner I have that can adjust line voltage and that weighs a ton. That is not a UPS and was commercial stuff from someplace I worked that moved and tore up their server room…

PRICE RANGE - I get very resistant at $500, it’s not a limit but I don’t want to spend more if there is no good reason. At the top of the price range I see:

• The New iFi Power Station

• Furman Elite 15 stuff, mostly used 13 outlet, some new linear

In the next tier down I see
Audioquest 2 and 3 - I know Headphones.com has the 2.
Lots of stuff on Amazon that I don’t recognize

And in the bottom tier, there are the power strips, some by Furman or Tripplite that are OK, or I have a UPS from APC sitting around (new battery) but I don’t relish having to put in another new battery in a couple of years. It’s not a computer hard drive I’m protecting.

EQUIPMENT in the Case (currently): TV, Comcast box, Blu Ray Player, CD Player, Teac DAC, Wyred4Sound Amp, Musical Fidelity Phono Preamp, Sonos Port, VPI Scout Turntable, Integra Soundbar, FM Tuner, Powered Antenna (not sure if that’s there or not)

Considerations: I might pull the FM Tuner - haven’t used it since streaming audio from Sonos. There’s a dual cassette deck that I pulled years ago too… There might be other stuff… all the cats I’ve had in the past years are accounted for.

Question: What do you-all suggest?

Going to make a decision quickly.

[PaisleyUnderground]

@pennstac

Most of it is plugged into an old MONSTER POWER conditioner that I got when Tweeter went out of business.

I think I bought the same one when my Tweeter went out of business.

When my Monster Power conditioner (which I use for my TV and home theater equipment) stops working, I’m going to replace it with a Zero Surge. I already have one and it works pretty well. It doesn’t do much fancy stuff, but it does stop surges forever (I believe they are the only company that offers surge protection that doesn’t wear out, other than the companies they license to) and removes EMI/RFI.

I replaced the Zero Surge in my audio setup with PS Audio and Core Power gear, but this was because I was specifically looking for power conditioning, and in any case, they are outside of your price range.

If you want something good, but more on the budget end of the market, this Wirecutter article makes some recommendations, based on their tests.

[deafenears]

@pennstac

Question: What do you-all suggest?

Going to make a decision quickly.

Shunyata Venom PS10? 10 outlets, though you could use a splitter to fit a few more devices.

[pennstac]

$798 list. For that money, I can get a pretty nice Furman. Why the Shunyata, and where can I get it for $500 or less?

@PaisleyUnderground 's suggestion of the Zero Surge is in the ballpark, but what’s the value over Triplite? It does look interesting.

@SebastienChiu talk me into the iFi product!!!

[PaisleyUnderground]

@pennstac

@PaisleyUnderground 's suggestion of the Zero Surge is in the ballpark, but what’s the value over Triplite?

The reason I like the Zero Surge is because I know the surge protection won’t wear out. The Triplite (or equivalent Furman) is better value for money. Case in point, Wirecutter had originally recommended the Zero Surge as the best surge protector in a previous article, and then then dropped it from the list, based on value. But given the the expensive stuff plugged into it, I don’t feel bad for spending $300 on a set-it-and-forget-it solution.

[rrwwss52]

WHAT are you trying to accomplish?

Organization, or an improvement in performance.

I have several power related components. Some are used in conjunction with one another. If you’re simply trying to centralize the power box, the Furmans are nice and fairly priced. Some power conditioners / control centers can be had for good prices used. I just picked up a pre-owned Audience V8 Forte for use with my Audience 2 outlet aR2p conditioner (I purchased that as a show demo).

aR2p Power Conditioner

forte V8 Power Reviews -

.

[pennstac]

@rrwwss52

WHAT are you trying to accomplish?
Organization, or an improvement in performance.

Yes. Organization is first, but that will come with any solution. I’m not looking for any specific improvement in performance, but I certainly don’t object to improvements in performance, and I AM looking to ensure reasonable protection. I long ago gave up on simple surge protectors, am aware that they don’t last past once good spike, and that plugging one into another ain’t the way to do it.

The more expensive equipment is plugged into the Monster conditioner. If I get something newer and better, some will be in the newer stuff. The more sensitive equipment, like phono pre-amp is in the lower section of the cabinet, and the cable, TV, main amp and video stuff is in the upper area. That’s the part that is better protected as of now.

The cables are generally good quality, but not silly expensive. The most expensive interconnects are Audioquest Yukon’s from the phono preamp to the main amp. Most of the rest is approximately Audioquest Red River or equivalent grade like Pangea. I have long Cardas litz cable for the main speakers.

Given the quality of my speakers and amplification, I don’t expect that I will have any audible improvement, even were I to use unobtanium power conditioning I do anticipate that in the next few months to a year that I will move upscale in the speaker range and after that, perhaps. Or perhaps not. My ears are not the newest models.

So any performance improvements would likely be protection performance. I have no unusual hums, pops, buzzes, or other noises that I need to eliminate. The noise floor is acceptably low. Improvement is always possible, but environmental noises also exist.

[rrwwss52]

I think Furman is your best bet.

If you wanted to take the Power Plant plunge, it does make a difference. Cleans up the power, and reduces incoming electric total harmonic distortion to near zero. Regulates voltage too.

This is my data from the P12 last week, Incoming / outgoing THD, Voltage Wattage, Temp.

[rrwwss52]

This is from the office system, P5.

[pennstac]

I’d been looking at the Elite line. Are the P5 and P12 from the pro-audio, or are they older models? I don’t see them online. Nor do I see “power plant”. Any thoughts about buying pre-owned? I know they aren’t MOV’s but I still hesitate to buy used (although that Monster from Tweeter was a floor model)

And please keep my budget in mind. No sense plugging $2K equipment into a $4K conditioner.